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 Obama vs Berg Court Case

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:15 pm

But if his mom's a US citizen, does it matter where he's born??

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:20 pm

Icelus wrote:
But if his mom's a US citizen, does it matter where he's born??

no. If your parent is a U.S. citizen and you're born overseas you are automatically considered a U.S. citizen, and usually, a citizen of whatever country you're born in. It's how some people have dual-citizenship. When you go into government, however, they require you to renounce any other citizenships you happen to hold. So even if Obama had dual citizenship at one point, he most certainly doesn't now.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:21 pm

The state keeps the original, like Ravey said, but in some states, LIKE HAWAII, even the original is not available, AT ALL. Period. Hawaii has laws that prevent access to the original. even by the person for whom it was created and assigned.
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:22 pm

Ravey wrote:
Icelus wrote:
But if his mom's a US citizen, does it matter where he's born??

no. If your parent is a U.S. citizen and you're born overseas you are automatically considered a U.S. citizen, and usually, a citizen of whatever country you're born in. It's how some people have dual-citizenship. When you go into government, however, they require you to renounce any other citizenships you happen to hold. So even if Obama had dual citizenship at one point, he most certainly doesn't now.

Exactly. See Ravey, me working in government and you as well, specifically working in Immigration know all the answers! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:24 pm

So doesn't this make the whole lawsuit a moot point?

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:26 pm

Dingy wrote:
Ravey wrote:
Icelus wrote:
But if his mom's a US citizen, does it matter where he's born??

no. If your parent is a U.S. citizen and you're born overseas you are automatically considered a U.S. citizen, and usually, a citizen of whatever country you're born in. It's how some people have dual-citizenship. When you go into government, however, they require you to renounce any other citizenships you happen to hold. So even if Obama had dual citizenship at one point, he most certainly doesn't now.

Exactly. See Ravey, me working in government and you as well, specifically working in Immigration know all the answers! Smile

Very Happy Actually Gabbo told me about the renunciation of your dual citizenship a long time ago when she had considered State Dept. Once she found out she would have to renounce her PN citizenship she said F it.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:28 pm

Gabbo??? OOOOH you mean flabbo bumble bee? Gotcha. Yeah, I remember all that too. Trust me, I heard all about it.

But, I also knew it from friends in State Dept. and from talking with people like the Ambassador. Plus, I figured when you were looking at jobs in Homeland Security and working in immigration, you'd dealt with lots of this poop.
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:35 pm

Dingy wrote:
Gabbo??? OOOOH you mean flabbo bumble bee? Gotcha. Yeah, I remember all that too. Trust me, I heard all about it.

But, I also knew it from friends in State Dept. and from talking with people like the Ambassador. Plus, I figured when you were looking at jobs in Homeland Security and working in immigration, you'd dealt with lots of this poop.

Actually, my first experience with legal documentation was when I was working for the PI company. All of my background investigations, skip-traces, etc. had to be court-ready in case I was called to testify.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:39 pm

Dingy wrote:
Kade, did you even read the 2nd site? They actually handled the document themselves. All of the points you contend font, digital halos, etc. were all addressed. You guys are really reaching with some of this crap, honestly.

Had you read my post i pointed exactly that out, meaning that the certificate is NOT a copy of the original. What it is is a reproduction of the original (supposedly), and even that does not explain the digital halo's around the words, or the fact its a Certification rather than a Certificate which I'm pretty sure mine says.

You can try and blow this entire thing off as some crack pot theory or me being a whack job or any number of things that really don't address the point of the discussion but what you can't explain, nether of you, is why Obama or the Obama campaign have not provided anything admissible in a court of law to prove he is a citizen of the united states like McCain has.

McCain was born on a military base which is U.S. soil. That makes him a citizen even though the region in which he was nor born was not declared a U.S. territory till 16 years later. He is legal. Obama has not provided any proof of his eligibility and that Certification of Birth is not proof in the least. I could do the same or better with photo shop. Go in and take a Polaroid of the original for god sake and be done with it. Even though Hawaii has a law saying that the original is not available, you would think that the one time it would be OK to look at the original would be for a presidential friggin election!

My only original point, which you two have done an artful job of dancing around, was that refusing to release the original, a photo copy of, or even a picture of the original birth certificate, makes Obama look like he is trying to hide something, and lack of trust in a candidate could very well affect the election. People don't vote for people they don't trust.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:46 pm

Kade, please refer to my earlier post. The motion hasn't been signed by a judge meaning Obama has no obligation to do anything. Any legal adviser/lawyer/scholar would tell you that you do not give credence to claims that are extremely likely to be thrown out. PLUS, even addressing this stupid issue would give it far more credit than it deserves. Why hasn't McCain given us his health records? Using your logic, he should just put the issue behind him by fully disclosing his medical records.
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:48 pm

Kade wrote:
Dingy wrote:
Kade, did you even read the 2nd site? They actually handled the document themselves. All of the points you contend font, digital halos, etc. were all addressed. You guys are really reaching with some of this crap, honestly.

Had you read my post i pointed exactly that out, meaning that the certificate is NOT a copy of the original. What it is is a reproduction of the original (supposedly), and even that does not explain the digital halo's around the words, or the fact its a Certification rather than a Certificate which I'm pretty sure mine says.

You can try and blow this entire thing off as some crack pot theory or me being a whack job or any number of things that really don't address the point of the discussion but what you can't explain, nether of you, is why Obama or the Obama campaign have not provided anything admissible in a court of law to prove he is a citizen of the united states like McCain has.

McCain was born on a military base which is U.S. soil. That makes him a citizen even though the region in which he was nor born was not declared a U.S. territory till 16 years later. He is legal. Obama has not provided any proof of his eligibility and that Certification of Birth is not proof in the least. I could do the same or better with photo shop. Go in and take a Polaroid of the original for god sake and be done with it. Even though Hawaii has a law saying that the original is not available, you would think that the one time it would be OK to look at the original would be for a presidential friggin election!

My only original point, which you two have done an artful job of dancing around, was that refusing to release the original, a photo copy of, or even a picture of the original birth certificate, makes Obama look like he is trying to hide something, and lack of trust in a candidate could very well affect the election. People don't vote for people they don't trust.
.

Or you could fly to Hawaii and demand to see it yourself. Trust me, not all 50 states have birth certificates that look the same, that have the same language, images, whatever. I've seen all of them, and some of them look weird as hell. It's admissable in court, and so is his passport. Do you really think if there was any chance of it NOT being legal he would have made it as far as he did? That would indicate a conspiracy implicating not only his entire campaign staff, but also the DNC, ALL of the news media, McCain, his campaign, the RNC, the Senate, the Justice Department, the State Department, the State of Illinois, and the State of Hawaii. I think it's time to concede.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:41 pm

Quote :

Or you could fly to Hawaii and demand to see it yourself. Trust me, not all 50 states have birth certificates that look the same, that have the same language, images, whatever. I've seen all of them, and some of them look weird as hell. It's admissable in court, and so is his passport. Do you really think if there was any chance of it NOT being legal he would have made it as far as he did? That would indicate a conspiracy implicating not only his entire campaign staff, but also the DNC, ALL of the news media, McCain, his campaign, the RNC, the Senate, the Justice Department, the State Department, the State of Illinois, and the State of Hawaii. I think it's time to concede.

I believe the DNC is so desperate to get a liberal candidate in the white house who shares their socialist views that they would say and do just about anything to ensure their power and influence. They have proven time and time again that they don't have the nations best interests at heart and are only out for themselves.

I believe Obama came in at the right time and told them exactly what they wanted to hear to ensure that not only democrats voted for him, but the independents too, and they lapped it up because he is the frigging manchurian candidate. He is PERFECT on paper and as long as you don't look past the surface or actually listen to him, he looks like the perfect president to bring us and the world all together under one big rainbow flag.

I think that just laughing it all off as those crazy right wingers is dangerous and stupid as hell. I can afford to be wrong on my belief here. God help me I hope I am, but you can't say the same about your position. If I'm wrong, nothing is lost. If you are wrong, well you can pretty much flush personal liberty, democracy, and our economy down the crapper.

I said it before, and ill say it again. If he has nothing to hide, why is he hiding it.

Quote :

Kade, please refer to my earlier post. The motion hasn't been signed by a judge meaning Obama has no obligation to do anything. Any legal adviser/lawyer/scholar would tell you that you do not give credence to claims that are extremely likely to be thrown out. PLUS, even addressing this stupid issue would give it far more credit than it deserves. Why hasn't McCain given us his health records? Using your logic, he should just put the issue behind him by fully disclosing his medical records.

Repeating yourself does not make you right.

Obama as a candidate for the presidency for the Untied States of America should be required to turn over any and all documents pertaining to his citizenship, and quite frankly McCain's health records in no way have any bearing on Obama releasing his information.

You can beat McCain into the ground but he has ZERO bearing on Obama hiding what should be public knowledge.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:46 pm

Looking at this ENTIRE argument..

What's the point? I mean seriously, you three have been going back and forth all day for, in my opinion, nothing more than the sake of arguing. I've been sitting here with popcorn and mountain dew enjoying this whole exchange though, so you know, keep it up. tongue

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:51 pm

Hi I'm Mook. Vote fer me!
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:08 pm

Kade wrote:

I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative. Big difference.



Wow, you sound like my father. The only "big difference" is that some liberals have the tag of republican, and some conservatives have the tag of democrat. So to further distance themselves from these people, you insist on being called a conservative, or a liberal.

Republicans would encompass the entire spectrum of conservatism. From severe, to on the fence. Democrats would encompass the other spectrum from severe liberal to on the fence. As a visual aid, imagine a sea saw. The left side of the sea saw is democrat, the right side is republican. Despite your views and beliefs, you're "conservative" or "liberal" labels still fall into their respective categories.

It's hard to be objective either way if you consider yourself a liberal, democrat, republican, or conservative. In the end, its a title to pigeon hole people in their beliefs. My personal opinion is, when you're so far right, or so far left, you're too far gone to be able to see things clearly. You're so clouded by your intense "beliefs" or "views" to be able to see things objectively from both sides. It's very RARE for any conservative/republican, or democrat/liberal to EVER admit the other side has a good point on a certain subject. Honestly, I cant recall a single instance where a right wing person said "oh i agree with this left wing guy on this subject, but disagree on this subject." The same goes for the left wing about right ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:28 pm

Vit wrote:
Kade wrote:

I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative. Big difference.



Wow, you sound like my father. The only "big difference" is that some liberals have the tag of republican, and some conservatives have the tag of democrat. So to further distance themselves from these people, you insist on being called a conservative, or a liberal.

Republicans would encompass the entire spectrum of conservatism. From severe, to on the fence. Democrats would encompass the other spectrum from severe liberal to on the fence. As a visual aid, imagine a sea saw. The left side of the sea saw is democrat, the right side is republican. Despite your views and beliefs, you're "conservative" or "liberal" labels still fall into their respective categories.

It's hard to be objective either way if you consider yourself a liberal, democrat, republican, or conservative. In the end, its a title to pigeon hole people in their beliefs. My personal opinion is, when you're so far right, or so far left, you're too far gone to be able to see things clearly. You're so clouded by your intense "beliefs" or "views" to be able to see things objectively from both sides. It's very RARE for any conservative/republican, or democrat/liberal to EVER admit the other side has a good point on a certain subject. Honestly, I cant recall a single instance where a right wing person said "oh i agree with this left wing guy on this subject, but disagree on this subject." The same goes for the left wing about right ideas.



You know, I've been popcorning this whole conversation, but I feel I need to give this post a +1. Under no circumstances have I witnessed a party member give the opposition credit.

This, primarily, is why I'm still happy to be a Canadian. Our politicians don't get office if they don't fiercely support their country, and not their party. Current Prime Minister is an exception, and an embarrassment.

I'd love the US a lot more if the government didn't have its head up its ass.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:41 pm

Oh noes, i got a +1 from a Canadian. I must be wrong!
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:55 am

Vit wrote:
It's very RARE for any conservative/republican, or democrat/liberal to EVER admit the other side has a good point on a certain subject. Honestly, I cant recall a single instance where a right wing person said "oh i agree with this left wing guy on this subject, but disagree on this subject." The same goes for the left wing about right ideas.

Throw something out and lets see if we can agree, I find myself open to any ideas as long as they have reasoning and merit behind them.
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:31 am

Sounds good to me.

Personally I think the government started to go down hill with the advent of career politicians. Whether Democrat or Republican, none of them have had the countries best interest at heart as of late. I can't speak to before my birth but it would seem that its a pattern.

And Vit, the difference between Republican and Democrat is exactly jack crap. There are plenty of liberal republicans, McCain is one of them no matter how much he may protest. In fact the Republicans are so far left at this point that they may as well just Join the liberal movement and stop mucking up Conservatism. The two are parties without a wit of difference between them except for the fact that they hate each other and they would rather do whats good for their parties than the nation as a whole.

Liberalism and Conservatism is an ideology and a system of belief. Therefor if you must insist on labeling me anything, you can call me an Independent Conservative. I will vote for whomever shows him or her self to be the better candidate. In this case and sadly for all of my life, the "Better" candidate means that they will screw up the nation less than the other guy.

None of the people running should be president in my opinion but since the system is broke as hell and a third party candidate has no chance, we really have no option but to vote for the lesser of two evils. Personally if i had my choice i would be voting with the Constitution party candidate, but im no fool and i wont be throwing my vote away on a lost cause.

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:52 am

Well I can tell you I'm not a Democrat, seeing as I'm a registered Independent, but I consider myself a liberal. There are more than 2 political positions despite the fact that there are only two main parties, so that means Kade and I agree. He can be a conservative without being a Republican (my guess would be registered Liberatarian?) But either way, voting outside these two parties in our country is pretty much meaningless due to our voting system, which is another long discussion.

That said, I find very little to agree with coming out of the Republican party these days. I'm an atheist and I prefer less role for religion in ALL aspects of our lives, I'm pro-choice, I want more gov't regulation, I want tighter fiscal responsibility (which Rep. have a hard time claiming after the W presidency), I want action on global climate change, I want us out of this war in Iraq, I'd like to see us back at the negotiating table in the UN, there are a myriad of international issues Bush has ignored/fanned the flames on that I would like to see discussed, I want less corruption (though I'm not sure if any government is capable of such). Finally, the sharp shift to the right beginning with the Moral Majority in the 80s and 90s scares the bejeezus out of me. Mixing right wing evangelical ideology with nationalist ideas has created a population that thinks the US is morally and socially superior to the rest of the world. It completely ignores our foreign policy history and the legitimate greivances some countries take with us, it breeds xenophobia, and an "us vs. them" mentality, and any attempt to criticize our country is taken as "un-American". Not only is this reminiscent of McCarthyism, but it leans very heavily towards fascist ideology. It's a narrow worldview and I'm sorry if I find little to agree with, but that's how it is.

I personally enjoy discussing these issues with Kade. I don't feel like we're arguing, I feel like we're debating. I'm not sure how he feels about it, but I'm certainly not angry and it doesn't make me dislike him as a person or anything crazy like that. We just disagree Very Happy

**EDIT*** see we agree again. If a third party stood a chance I would totally vote Green Party. This is an area I think we could find common ground on...voting system reform. I would personally like our voting system to be revamped so that we CAN vote for third parties, and they would actually stand a chance. More of PR voting system than this crap FPTP Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:30 pm

I agree with Ravey on the voting system, but find it extremely hard to change. Big business has billiions (probably trillions really) invested in both main party. That's pretty much next to impossible to deconstruct. I'm all for it, but I have doubts I'll ever see it in my lifetime.

Honestly, I'd prefer a pseudo-marxist system, similar to that of Star Trek world. No money, everyone does their job because, well, they want to and it's their job. Plus, wearing those form-fitting suits and prancing around with a tricorder would be AMAZING!
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:11 pm

Dingy wrote:

Honestly, I'd prefer a pseudo-marxist system, similar to that of Star Trek world. No money, everyone does their job because, well, they want to and it's their job. Plus, wearing those form-fitting suits and prancing around with a tricorder would be AMAZING!

Nothing like this could ever happen with the rampant greed that plays such a large part in the human psyche. Some people want to live life and be happy, others want power/influence for the sake of having power/influence (which I guess you could say is what makes them happy) and are willing to crush anyone standing in the way of that.

That would be nice though...
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:17 pm

Dingy wrote:
I agree with Ravey on the voting system, but find it extremely hard to change. Big business has billiions (probably trillions really) invested in both main party. That's pretty much next to impossible to deconstruct. I'm all for it, but I have doubts I'll ever see it in my lifetime.

Honestly, I'd prefer a pseudo-marxist system, similar to that of Star Trek world. No money, everyone does their job because, well, they want to and it's their job. Plus, wearing those form-fitting suits and prancing around with a tricorder would be AMAZING!

Only if I get to play 7 of 9 Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:21 pm

hahahaha word. I just want to be Ryker. He got to band Deanna Troy
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PostSubject: Re: Obama vs Berg Court Case   Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:26 pm

Dingy wrote:
hahahaha word. I just want to be Ryker. He got to band Deanna Troy

BLEH! I never rly liked her, she was always too interested in feelings. The first security officer, and I'm blanking on her name right now....she was badass

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