LOL @ Censorship

I don't know if you can call reposting an article on a guild forum "plagiarism".

I did enjoy reading it all, but everything you read online or see on tv should be taken with a grain of salt (how many times have you heard that?), of course, even then that approach may be fruitless since finding cold-hard-facts online, or anywhere for that matter, is difficult.

We are basically left with articles that slant whichever way their author wants them to go, this is not necessarily a bad thing (I thought about this some more, and it is bad. Terribly slanted articles mis-inform people who are too clueless or lazy to figure things out on their own, propagating the archetype below), but finding the facts yourself should be easier. Of course, for a... how did you put it?

"loudmouthed middle-American archetype, as Sarah Palin is, John Q. Public will drop his giant-size bag of Doritos in gratitude, wipe the Sizzlin' Picante dust from his lips and rush to the booth to vote for her."

Fact finding is probably the last thing on their mind.

Slayde wrote:

I did enjoy reading it all, but everything you read online or see on tv should be taken with a grain of salt (how many times have you heard that?), of course, even then that approach may be fruitless since finding cold-hard-facts online, or anywhere for that matter, is difficult.

We are basically left with articles that slant whichever way their author wants them to go, this is not necessarily a bad thing, but finding the facts yourself should be easier.

That's why a clear understanding of who is in control of news organizations is important, and I'm always confused when people don't know this. If you understand who is selling you something, you are ultimately more qualified to judge it's value. Also, not all news is biased, and I continue to be aggravated by assertions that the news media is "liberally" biased (I've heard both, but this is by far the more common one). I've seen more than enough empirical studies of this issue to confirm for myself that it isn't true. If you don't believe me, go to your university's library, do some research, and find out for yourself.

This is the difference between those who are politically educated and those who are just political. A politically educated person will be able to discern the subtleties of the above article, like the author's claim that we're essentially still fighting the culture war of the 60's, even if it's only at election time, and that so many people in this country 1. fail to see that, 2. don't even understand what it means but are struck by sheer power of the non-argument in it.

And Slayde, I hate to seem like I'm picking on you here, but in this life there are very few "cold hard facts". There are a myriad of interpretations of what the Truth is, and only by seeking knowledge will we ever get closer to it. While that may be somewhat more philosophical than you had in mind, it applies to news as well. Being able to judge news requires a thorough understanding of the relevant events, their context, history, and for heavens sake multiple (and here's the key) CREDIBLE sources. Joe Schmoe's political website isn't news, and neither are emails your grandma sends you unless they link to article with a verifiable publishing date, authors name, and/or reputable contributing news agency.

Well this isn't exactly civil, but its bringing people to the website and getting them to check the forums so who am I to complain.

Personally there is no way i could ever do enough research to even begin to touch that giant wall of text up there but i would agree with the consensus here that the political system is completely corrupt and in my personal opinion, none of these candidates should be president. Not a single one of them is qualified enough for the job. Palin is more qualified than Obama and McCain because senators don't actually do a whole lot to begin with and they most certainly aren't in any way governors. I doubt very much any of them has actually talked to one of their constituents since they took office. Im not saying Palin is in any way qualified for the job, but compared to the other candidates, she can hold her own in my opinion.

However if I must make a decision, and not throw my vote away on a third party candidate, i am forced to pick McCain. Not because he is the best man for the job but because out of all the options, he is the least likely to preside over the destruction of this country. I don't trust him personally, I definitely don't trust Obama, Biden, or Palin ether, but that's not the point is it. Palin might be more of a real person and probably the closest thing to a genuine human being we have seen in office for a good long time but no politician is trustworthy. Personally i like McCain because he is unpredictable and will keep the very real enemies this nation has on their toes. I want McCain because the image of that guy stumbling around the white house with the nuclear button in his hand scares the crap out of those enemies and gives them pause.

The best candidate in my opinion is from the constitution party or some damn thing. He wants to get rid of the government in general and privatize everything but the military and a few select systems. I couldn't agree with him more on that. This government has become nothing but a greedy power-mongering machine so obsessed with staying in power they have forgotten that they serve the people. They should be afraid of what we the people will do and they aren't. People are buried under so much legislation and regulation that they are strangling themselves. Forget about George Bush. Who friggin cares. It's not like Al Gore or John Kerry would have done anything different except ditch out of Iraq. We wouldn't be in a period of economic peace and tranquility. We would be in exactly the same spot we are now, more and bigger government doing more and more to gain all the power in the nation.

Greed, Power, and Money runs the politicians in this nation and quite frankly the only thing we have to go on when deciding between them are their associations, what they say they are going to do (most of which never happens) and who they are putting into power. I am just so sick of the lot of it that i want to cry half the time, but the only two options are to not vote at all, or to pick one of these idiots. I wish i had an In, i would run for office in a heartbeat if i thought i have half a chance.

This nation needs someone uncorruptable to run for office. Someone who didn't get to where he is today by shady means. Someone who walks up, announces his presidency and tosses the open book to his life and says, "go right ahead, judge me for what i have done and who I am today." We need a politician that doesn't try and spin questions, dodge out of answers or run around spewing out bald faced lies about his opponents, something that all of the candidates have done so far by the way.

The last thing we need is yet another politician who takes every opportunity to hide his past, keep his life, associations, and beliefs a secret for as long as possible. Obama is doing it, Palin tried to do it, but she isn't as good at it, McCain has been around so long that he cant possibly hide most of it, and the same goes for Biden.

I hate to say it but we need a Paladin like figurehead to walk out of no where, stroll into Washington and start pointing fingers. The only way change will ever come to this nation is a man to stand up, be a damn man for once and tell them how its going to be. Ignore the people trying to manipulate him, ignore the people trying to bribe him, and ignore the people trying to bring him down to their level. He needs to stand there and cut out the cancers growing on the government and he needs to not care what people think of him or do to him because the right thing is the right thing and when you know it you do it without question, reservation, or hesitation. When the decision needs to be made you make it and the consequences be damned.

Ravey wrote:

And Slayde, I hate to seem like I'm picking on you here, but in this life there are very few "cold hard facts". There are a myriad of interpretations of what the Truth is, and only by seeking knowledge will we ever get closer to it. While that may be somewhat more philosophical than you had in mind, it applies to news as well. Being able to judge news requires a thorough understanding of the relevant events, their context, history, and for heavens sake multiple (and here's the key) CREDIBLE sources. Joe Schmoe's political website isn't news, and neither are emails your grandma sends you unless they link to article with a verifiable publishing date, authors name, and/or reputable contributing news agency.

I didn't think you were, but as you can see I did edit my post. I think you were already responding when I did

But you are right, it is very difficult to come by "cold hard facts", and that very term may not even be applicable in today's world. Multiple, credible sources is about the best you can do, even if those sources have different slants to their reporting.

People need to be able to look at the news, understand it, and then make their own decisions based upon what they've seen. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people simply are spoon-fed what the MSM generally doles out, and they are content with what they hear without any further investigation of their own.

Kade wrote:

Well this isn't exactly civil, but its bringing people to the website and getting them to check the forums so who am I to complain.

Personally there is no way i could ever do enough research to even begin to touch that giant wall of text up there but i would agree with the consensus here that the political system is completely corrupt and in my personal opinion, none of these candidates should be president. Not a single one of them is qualified enough for the job. Palin is more qualified than Obama and McCain because senators don't actually do a whole lot to begin with and they most certainly aren't in any way governors. I doubt very much any of them has actually talked to one of their constituents since they took office. Im not saying Palin is in any way qualified for the job, but compared to the other candidates, she can hold her own in my opinion.

However if I must make a decision, and not throw my vote away on a third party candidate, i am forced to pick McCain. Not because he is the best man for the job but because out of all the options, he is the least likely to preside over the destruction of this country. I don't trust him personally, I definitely don't trust Obama, Biden, or Palin ether, but that's not the point is it. Palin might be more of a real person and probably the closest thing to a genuine human being we have seen in office for a good long time but no politician is trustworthy. Personally i like McCain because he is unpredictable and will keep the very real enemies this nation has on their toes. I want McCain because the image of that guy stumbling around the white house with the nuclear button in his hand scares the crap out of those enemies and gives them pause.

The best candidate in my opinion is from the constitution party or some damn thing. He wants to get rid of the government in general and privatize everything but the military and a few select systems. I couldn't agree with him more on that. This government has become nothing but a greedy power-mongering machine so obsessed with staying in power they have forgotten that they serve the people. They should be afraid of what we the people will do and they aren't. People are buried under so much legislation and regulation that they are strangling themselves. Forget about George Bush. Who friggin cares. It's not like Al Gore or John Kerry would have done anything different except ditch out of Iraq. We wouldn't be in a period of economic peace and tranquility. We would be in exactly the same spot we are now, more and bigger government doing more and more to gain all the power in the nation.

Greed, Power, and Money runs the politicians in this nation and quite frankly the only thing we have to go on when deciding between them are their associations, what they say they are going to do (most of which never happens) and who they are putting into power. I am just so sick of the lot of it that i want to cry half the time, but the only two options are to not vote at all, or to pick one of these idiots. I wish i had an In, i would run for office in a heartbeat if i thought i have half a chance.

This nation needs someone uncorruptable to run for office. Someone who didn't get to where he is today by shady means. Someone who walks up, announces his presidency and tosses the open book to his life and says, "go right ahead, judge me for what i have done and who I am today." We need a politician that doesn't try and spin questions, dodge out of answers or run around spewing out bald faced lies about his opponents, something that all of the candidates have done so far by the way.

The last thing we need is yet another politician who takes every opportunity to hide his past, keep his life, associations, and beliefs a secret for as long as possible. Obama is doing it, Palin tried to do it, but she isn't as good at it, McCain has been around so long that he cant possibly hide most of it, and the same goes for Biden.

I hate to say it but we need a Paladin like figurehead to walk out of no where, stroll into Washington and start pointing fingers. The only way change will ever come to this nation is a man to stand up, be a damn man for once and tell them how its going to be. Ignore the people trying to manipulate him, ignore the people trying to bribe him, and ignore the people trying to bring him down to their level. He needs to stand there and cut out the cancers growing on the government and he needs to not care what people think of him or do to him because the right thing is the right thing and when you know it you do it without question, reservation, or hesitation. When the decision needs to be made you make it and the consequences be damned.

I agree with about 90% of this (opinions about Palin excluded), but I have one addition. Add corporate greed and corruption in there, because the private sector is no less corrupt, greedy, and manipulative than the government. Those, after all, are the people bribing our politicians. This is what happens when the triangle (gov't, people, and business) is out of whack. Too much power, money and influence are concentrated in our gov't and corporations, and we the people are getting the shaft. Hence my statement above that the two options facing our country are fascism (a nationalist, corporatist state) or revolution. Corporatism seems to have gained quite a foothold while the people have remained extremely silent on the issue. Unfortunately, the virtues of capitalism have been ingrained in us since we were children, and any deviation from free market capitalism forces cries of "Communism! Socialism!". What we need to do is decouple the Cold War and our Cold War attitudes/opinions from the academic concepts of socialism and take a serious look at how they might actually help those of us in the middle class. Vive la revolution?

Also Kade, while that would be great, the problem with a guy like that making it into Washington is that humans are fallable and such a person will have some sort of past or do something stupid at one point. The media will make it a huge issue, like they're doing with Ayers, even when it's a non-issue. For a less politicized but also relevant example, think about Howard Dean and his famous scream during the primary season. Like him or not, agree with him or not, that man was GENUINELY riled up during that speech. He was excited, he was emotional, he was a real person, and it cost him the nomination. Until we start demanding real news from our media and not entertainment, our choices are limited to the people who can navigate such dangerously superficial waters.

Kade wrote:

The last thing we need is yet another politician who takes every opportunity to hide his past, keep his life, associations, and beliefs a secret for as long as possible. Obama is doing it, Palin tried to do it, but she isn't as good at it, McCain has been around so long that he cant possibly hide most of it, and the same goes for Biden.

I hate to say it but we need a Paladin like figurehead to walk out of no where, stroll into Washington and start pointing fingers. The only way change will ever come to this nation is a man to stand up, be a damn man for once and tell them how its going to be. Ignore the people trying to manipulate him, ignore the people trying to bribe him, and ignore the people trying to bring him down to their level. He needs to stand there and cut out the cancers growing on the government and he needs to not care what people think of him or do to him because the right thing is the right thing and when you know it you do it without question, reservation, or hesitation. When the decision needs to be made you make it and the consequences be damned.

Kade, I'm just curious where you are finding these statements about Obama hiding his past, as it appears to me he has been pretty open about most of it; obviously I mean besides the Ayers, etc. talk... since that has basically devolved into one side says one thing, other side refutes, and they go around and around. I have yet to see any concrete evidence of a strong association barring the party he threw Obama when he was running for senator, but at that time Ayers was a professor at the college and on the education board they both served on.

As for the Paladin, as much as I'd like to see the golden figurehead of the Emperor in 40k strut out and join us all together for enlightenment and economic fruition, I don't think he is going to show up anytime soon. Its unfortunate that politics is an inscrutable game that is played by most in the shadows... like you said before, it will be socialism or revolution before it changes.

Selfish wrote:

"I'm done"??? Ok have it your way. Anyways, may be I was a little vague with my idiot statement but I have read his views and listen to him speak. I should have said his ideas are idiotic. You are right he did not get where he is today by being an idiot. Anyways continue with your political discussion. As you can see in this is accomplishing so much. I mainly posted to poke fun at an obvious plagiarism.

Didn't know I was in class. And besides, I'm glad you posted the links. Plagiarism implies intent to deceive, which I did not have. I'm all for more people reading articles written by Matt Taibbi. PLEASE READ more of his stuff.

Ravey makes a great point about knowing WHERE you're getting your information. It's NEVER a good idea to rely on one source of information. In fact, it would be good to obtain as much information, from a variety of sources, as possible. However, most people are lazy and fail to do this. I routinely watch Fox News 1) for a helluva laugh 2) to scare the S**t out of myself and 3) so I can be aware of their "side" to the story. However, the Wall Street Journal is a great read, as is the NY Times, Washington Post and Washington Times. But, what's really scary is that often, we have to go OUTSIDE of our country to find good news info about what's going on INSIDE our country...OR, how our actions with regard to foreign policy are affecting the rest of the world. I'm sick of the cavalier mentality that many Americans have. I would understand if this were after WWII and we'd earned the respect to say "Screw you, our way or the highway", although I'd still disagree. However, after the last decade or so, we have no right to thumb our noses at people. We need to throw the pride away and be willing to work with other nations in order to fix the WORLD'S problems because no matter how you look at it, whether it's global terrorism, climate change, global financial situations, proliferation of weapons (all kinds), drug trafficking, human trafficking/slavery, all of these problems are also LOCAL. I'm so tired of people being ignorant of this. You'd think that now, after all these years, people would realize that globalization has shrunk the world so much that we need to be able to work together to solve whatever issues arise. Going it alone, antagonizing those who disagree with us, not willing to sit down and talk with those who might be "enemies" is not only foolish, it's dangerous. All great civilizations failed, in part, due to a sense of entitlement and arrogance. It seems as we are heading down that road, and if we continue with someone like McCain who has gone on record as saying he is opposed to "talking" with potential enemies, we are doomed for more downward trends in approval ratings around the world. If you think that doesn't affect you, you're sorely mistaken. Also, McCain doesn't even know who the leader of Spain is, one of our closes allies in this so-called "war on terrorism".

Thursday, Sep. 18, 2008
The Pain in Spain Falls Mainly on McCain
By Lisa Abend

"You gotta feel for Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. Here the Spanish Prime Minister is only four months from an end to his government's strained relations with that of President George W. Bush and blam! — along comes John McCain to suggest that the next four years might not be any better. During an interview in Miami earlier this week with Spanish-language station Union Radio, a reporter asked McCain whether, if elected, he would receive Zapatero in the White House. McCain answered, "Honestly, I have to analyze our relationships, situations and priorities, but I can assure you that I will establish closer relationships with our friends, and I will stand up to those who want to harm the United States."

Ouch. The question about Zapatero came after a series of questions on how McCain sees relations with Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba. He said he would not speak to Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez "without any sort of preconditions, as Senator Obama has said he would," and said Chávez was "depriving his people of their democratic rights." He judged Bolivia's Evo Morales as "very similar" and also condemned Cuba's Raúl Castro. When the questioner said, "Now let's talk of Spain" and asked whether he'd invite Zapatero, McCain responded with a vague statement that he would meet "with those leaders who are our friends" and then cited Mexican President Felipe Calderón as an example. The questioner tried several more times to steer the Senator back to a clear answer on Spain, but McCain never directly addressed the nation, saying, "What I would say is that my record is that of someone who has worked in a friendly atmosphere with those who are our friends and faced up to those who aren't."

From this, much of the Spanish press has concluded that the Republican candidate, who hails himself as the experienced foreign policy choice in this election, confused Spain — a NATO member and key ally in the fight against terrorism — with one of those troublesome Latin American states. That was certainly the interviewer's impression, for she followed up with a gentle reminder that Spain was a country in Europe. As Spanish newspaper El País put it, "In the best-case scenario, [his answer] demonstrates his ignorance with respect to Zapatero." - TIME Magazine

Basically, I'm extremely tired of people treating this country like their favorite goddamn football team. Putting stickers on your car about freedom and liberty and USA doesn't make you patriotic. It makes you sound like an ass.

Furthermore, American exceptionalism is getting old. We are NOT always right. People, like Sarh MFing Palin, who think the US is perfect are sorely mistaken. And frankly, I'm tired of people who say those who question the perfectness of the US aren't patriotic. Quoting Palin Barack Obama is “someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect”, Palin said, whereas, “we see America as a force of good in this world. We see an America of exceptionalism.” The problem with this is, if you view your country as being perfect, it is never wrong, and therefore, nothing ever needs to change. If you view your country as NOT being perfect, you accept the notion that you can change things to make it BETTER. For Palin, ideally, everything is already perfect and we are that "city on a hill" as she keeps repeating. Frankly, we aren't perfect, we DO need to consistently critique ourselves in order to make our country a better place.

Right,

Lets not turn this into a war of links.

If you have something to say, then say it yourself. I could just as easily post massive walls of text i pulled from the net as well but i promise you the second i start doing that, people will stop reading them.

No one is making the claim that America is perfect. Far from it. You would have to be a retard to think that it is. However that does not mean that I think we should be wiped off the face of the earth. Lets face it. EVERY single one of those news sources you cited up there does nothing but report on every flaw, problem, and disgusting topic they can come up with because lets face it drama sells.

Where are the articles about the overwhelming good this nation does on a daily friggin basis? Don't tell me that none of it exists ether. You can judge a nation by its footprint, so Lets theory craft for a moment.


WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TODAY IF THE UNITED STATES WAS WIPED OFF THE MAP?

This is what the rest of the world seems to want anyway so lets say the U.S. was taken out of the equation completely right now this instant. Lets say we fell apart and all ties to other nations were severed. We are fighting a civil war or a revolution or whatever. What happens to the rest of the world?

I seriously want an answer to what you think would happen if this came to pass.

Kade wrote:

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TODAY IF THE UNITED STATES WAS WIPED OFF THE MAP?

This is what the rest of the world seems to want anyway so lets say the U.S. was taken out of the equation completely right now this instant. Lets say we fell apart and all ties to other nations were severed. We are fighting a civil war or a revolution or whatever. What happens to the rest of the world?

I seriously want an answer to what you think would happen if this came to pass.

Well first of all, the rest of the world doesn't want us wiped off the map. As for most of the states, they would like us to stop circumventing international treaties, human rights conventions, trade agreements and snubbing respected institutions (like the UN) and start taking a critical perspective of what we're doing. There are legitimate greivances coming from some countries and some groups based on our foreign policy over the last 30-40 years (beyond that too in some cases). Ignoring these greivances or wishing them away does not change the fact that they're there, and for the people living with the consequences of our actions they are very real. (I can give you specific examples if you want them, but I'm trying to keep this breif.) Here's a fun analogy though. A kid at school punches you in the back of the neck. You know who did it, but he denies it, tells the teacher she has no authority to punish him, and then says, well I gave some old lollipops and gum to Cindy, so even if I did do it, which you can't prove, that should make up for it anyway. Would you be friends with him?

Now to answer your question. For one, there would be a global depression rivaling the GD and far worse than the one we're in at the moment. Why? We consume a LOT of stuff from a lot of different countries. Oil from the Mid-East, Latin America, and Russia; manufactured goods from India, China, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.; foodstuffs from Africa and Latin America; some goods and services from the EU. Commodities are traded in the dollar, which would certainly plummet, international business would grind to a halt, etc. It would be a major catastrophe. The rest of the world would eventually get over this as China and India continue to develop their middle classes. China and India would most certainly take over the role of the consumer, and the world economy would go on. We would lose our international prominence as a military power and be forced to rely on diplomacy to try to get our way in an increasingly hostile world. I predict isolationism and decline. Mexico may even try to take Texas and the rest of the Southwest territory we took from them back, depending on how far down we go. Alaska and Hawaii would declare independence and the Conch Republic would secede Look up that last one if you don't know what I'm talking about lolz

And this is why i'm moving to Canada. Cheers.

Wow, you have a very happy view of the rest of the world. I would put this in the category of absolute best case scenario.

Tala/Sauska wrote:

And this is why i'm moving to Canada. Cheers.

Mmm..if McCain wins I'm seriously considering moving to France, Germany, Japan, somewhere else with good food and drinks

Hey, Canada has Canadian Bacon, amirite?!

Dingy wrote:

I'm done. If you vote for McCain-Palin, you're wrong. I will not give the time to people who think 1) Obama is Muslim 2) Obama hangs out with terrorists 3) Obama is a socialist. If you are that easily mislead by the garbage you hear/see on tv you shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you are someone who thinks this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us
Then you are not patriotic, you're a damn moron.

Don't move to France, their food portions are too small for us American beasts!

Tala/Sauska wrote:

Hey, Canada has Canadian Bacon, amirite?!

ewwww

ok, fine, Poutine?

Canadian Bacon is a good movie.

Supa wrote:

Dingy wrote:

I'm done. If you vote for McCain-Palin, you're wrong. I will not give the time to people who think 1) Obama is Muslim 2) Obama hangs out with terrorists 3) Obama is a socialist. If you are that easily mislead by the garbage you hear/see on tv you shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you are someone who thinks this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us
Then you are not patriotic, you're a damn moron.

Don't move to France, their food portions are too small for us American beasts!

It's very nice actually. I lost weight while I was there

@ Tala...idkwth that is
last time someone offered me food that was spelled that oddly, it was cooked, partially grown chicken fetus. Don't ask, lol, philippinos eat some weird shit...

oh gack! Remind me never to go there and try the "local flavor"

Poutine is just fries and gravy :p I had that forced on me last time i went up there. Pretty damn tasty.

Luff poutine.....


Oh baby, New York Fries made into Poutine. OH BABY. OH BABY OHBA--shit, I just came...

Tala/Sauska wrote:

oh gack! Remind me never to go there and try the "local flavor"

Poutine is just fries and gravy :p I had that forced on me last time i went up there. Pretty damn tasty.

ooooh that sounds quite good actually Don't be afraid of philippino food now lol, most of it is REALLY good. It's an interesting mix of southeast asian and spanish cuisine (philippines was a spanish colony for quite a while). Start of with the Chicken adobo, its freakin awesome.

See? When we talk about politics, we argue...when we talk about food we laugh!

Fries, gravy, and cheese. Mmm....