LOL @ Censorship

this doesn't make me like McCain too much either
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brandon-friedman/mccains-non-support-for-t_b_131046.html
this has links to the Senate votes, and his record on those votes.

This is not to say Obama has done better on these, because I haven't investigated his voting record in reference to veterans, but it doesn't sit well with his comments --

"I know the veterans, I know them well, and I know that they know that I'll take care of them, and I have been proud of their support and their recognition of my service to the veterans, and I love them, and I'll take care of them, and they know that I'll take care of them."

Clearly, his voting record does not agree with his words; at least it doesn't appear that way.

Kade wrote:

Right,

Lets not turn this into a war of links.

If you have something to say, then say it yourself. I could just as easily post massive walls of text i pulled from the net as well but i promise you the second i start doing that, people will stop reading them.

No one is making the claim that America is perfect. Far from it. You would have to be a retard to think that it is. However that does not mean that I think we should be wiped off the face of the earth. Lets face it. EVERY single one of those news sources you cited up there does nothing but report on every flaw, problem, and disgusting topic they can come up with because lets face it drama sells.

Where are the articles about the overwhelming good this nation does on a daily friggin basis? Don't tell me that none of it exists ether. You can judge a nation by its footprint, so Lets theory craft for a moment.


WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TODAY IF THE UNITED STATES WAS WIPED OFF THE MAP?

This is what the rest of the world seems to want anyway so lets say the U.S. was taken out of the equation completely right now this instant. Lets say we fell apart and all ties to other nations were severed. We are fighting a civil war or a revolution or whatever. What happens to the rest of the world?

I seriously want an answer to what you think would happen if this came to pass.

Kade, sorry, I disagree. The rest of the world does NOT want us wiped off the map. So, your hypothetical is moot. But, to humor you, the world would face extreme financial disruption and meltdown, thus causing conflict over commodities and resources. I do agree that the world would be in great turmoil. The US is a huge economic powerhouse. However, I think over time, the vaccum would be replaced by, most likely, China. We are no longer the hegemon we want to be. The world is seeing the rise of China and India, and I expect that one or both of those countries, coupled with the UK and other Euro powers would step in and over time, things would balance themselves out. It would be a complete disaster for decades though.

But, what does that really say? Since we are the most powerful economic force people should just do wahtever the hell we say? That's the arrogance I'm talking about. And the reason people dislike us, is for the reasons ravey mentions. And ACTUALLY, if you would go to many countries in europe and asia, you'd find that many people are very fond of the US and its citizens, they just take issue with lots of the foreign policy decisions of recent decades. I'm sorry, but honestly, they have every right to take issue. Whether it's CIA backed coups to overthrow legitimately(and democratically elected) leaders because they happened to be left-leaning (see most of Latin America from 1950s-1980s), or the invasion of other countries (Iraq circa 2003), coupled with the diplomatic (or lack thereof) tone of US officials and heads of state in the last 8 years, the rest of the world is desperate for this election. Most people around the world, if they could vote, would vote for Obama. Take this excerpt from a recent article from the Guardian UK:

"But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.

The crowd of 200,000 that rallied to hear him in Berlin in July did so not only because of his charisma, but also because they know he, like the majority of the world's population, opposed the Iraq war. McCain supported it, peddling the lie that Saddam was linked to 9/11. Non-Americans sense that Obama will not ride roughshod over the international system but will treat alliances and global institutions seriously: McCain wants to bypass the United Nations in favour of a US-friendly League of Democracies. McCain might talk a good game on climate change, but a repeated floor chant at the Republican convention was "Drill, baby, drill!", as if the solution to global warming were not a radical rethink of the US's entire energy system but more offshore oil rigs.

If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

Until now, anti-Americanism has been exaggerated and much misunderstood: outside a leftist hardcore, it has mostly been anti-Bushism, opposition to this specific administration. But if McCain wins in November, that might well change. Suddenly Europeans and others will conclude that their dispute is with not only one ruling clique, but Americans themselves. For it will have been the American people, not the politicians, who will have passed up a once-in-a-generation chance for a fresh start - a fresh start the world is yearning for. "

Sorry to quote again, but it makes my point more quickly, and I'm at work

Slayde wrote:

this doesn't make me like McCain too much either
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brandon-friedman/mccains-non-support-for-t_b_131046.html
this has links to the Senate votes, and his record on those votes.

This is not to say Obama has done better on these, because I haven't investigated his voting record in reference to veterans, but it doesn't sit well with his comments --

"I know the veterans, I know them well, and I know that they know that I'll take care of them, and I have been proud of their support and their recognition of my service to the veterans, and I love them, and I'll take care of them, and they know that I'll take care of them."

Clearly, his voting record does not agree with his words; at least it doesn't appear that way.

The problem with this Slayde is the American people, nor the people who post this know what the actual bills and crap the senate vote on actually say. There are tons of conniving, backstabbing, and piggy backing going on with bills. Look at the unlawful gaming act bill, which was voted yes on by the senate which makes online poker illegal. You want to know what this bill was attached to? It was on the back of a port security bill. Now, you tell me id they're going to vote down a bill about port secuirty after 9/11 and everything even with a gambling bill on the back? This is one example of how people push their agenda by deceiving.

McCain might have agreed completely with these bills, but saw other things attached to them, or perhaps these were attached to something else he didn't agree with. Bottom line is, if you don't do the research and read the actual bill proposal, basing statements and your opinions off incomplete information is foolish.

Edit: And getting your facts from a biased site or news group is foolish for both Rep and Dems. Don't gobble up what they want to feed you, do your do diligence and research the topics on your own freely. If you look at that entire site you linked to, its 100% anti McCain and 100% for Obama.

Hey folks I will only make a very small post on this thread. As I am Canadien I am aware that many folks are sensitive about non Citizens making posts. While there is too much on this post for me to read everything I would like to say that I do admire all of your passion in regards to your political porcesses. I follow US policitcs obsessively and one thing I do beleive is that both Demopcratic and Republican tickets genuinely want to promote unity and take steps to recover your ecomony and your standing and reputaion on the international stage. Keep up the debate but remember one word above all. Respect.

Vit wrote:

The problem with this Slayde is the American people, nor the people who post this know what the actual bills and crap the senate vote on actually say. There are tons of conniving, backstabbing, and piggy backing going on with bills. Look at the unlawful gaming act bill, which was voted yes on by the senate which makes online poker illegal. You want to know what this bill was attached to? It was on the back of a port security bill. Now, you tell me id they're going to vote down a bill about port secuirty after 9/11 and everything even with a gambling bill on the back? This is one example of how people push their agenda by deceiving.

McCain might have agreed completely with these bills, but saw other things attached to them, or perhaps these were attached to something else he didn't agree with. Bottom line is, if you don't do the research and read the actual bill proposal, basing statements and your opinions off incomplete information is foolish.

Edit: And getting your facts from a biased site or news group is foolish for both Rep and Dems. Don't gobble up what they want to feed you, do your do diligence and research the topics on your own freely. If you look at that entire site you linked to, its 100% anti McCain and 100% for Obama.

I hear you on the bills, they are pretty ridiculous. Just goes to show looking at a record of voting on bills doesn't tell the whole story, unfortunately. All those attachments, but that is quite a few bills that are for veterans that he voted against; I don't know what to look at that would tell the whole story on them besides reading each bill.

And Huff has stuff from both sides on it usually(or links to it at least, I read articles off several websites), if you have a site you could suggest that would be nice.

Slayde wrote:

Vit wrote:

The problem with this Slayde is the American people, nor the people who post this know what the actual bills and crap the senate vote on actually say. There are tons of conniving, backstabbing, and piggy backing going on with bills. Look at the unlawful gaming act bill, which was voted yes on by the senate which makes online poker illegal. You want to know what this bill was attached to? It was on the back of a port security bill. Now, you tell me id they're going to vote down a bill about port secuirty after 9/11 and everything even with a gambling bill on the back? This is one example of how people push their agenda by deceiving.

McCain might have agreed completely with these bills, but saw other things attached to them, or perhaps these were attached to something else he didn't agree with. Bottom line is, if you don't do the research and read the actual bill proposal, basing statements and your opinions off incomplete information is foolish.

Edit: And getting your facts from a biased site or news group is foolish for both Rep and Dems. Don't gobble up what they want to feed you, do your do diligence and research the topics on your own freely. If you look at that entire site you linked to, its 100% anti McCain and 100% for Obama.

I hear you on the bills, they are pretty ridiculous. Just goes to show looking at a record of voting on bills doesn't tell the whole story, unfortunately. All those attachments, but that is quite a few bills that are for veterans that he voted against; I don't know what to look at that would tell the whole story on them besides reading each bill.

And Huff has stuff from both sides on it usually(or links to it at least, I read articles off several websites), if you have a site you could suggest that would be nice.

Unfortunately there will NEVER be an impartial website, news group, radio host, or any other forum when it comes to politics. The only choice you have when it comes to politics is to do ALL the research yourself. It's the only way for you to properly gauge what each candidate has done. Checking their voting record, reading the bills they voted for and against. If some cases you will have to read info off some biased sources, but the solution is to read both biased views and only take from them the corroborated facts. The rest is embelished drivel. I've come to hate the party system as whole as it does nothing, but seperate the people causing Americans to bicker with each other and allow the government to get away with murder.(sometimes literally) We have a checks and balance system right? House of Reps, Congress, and the President. The check on those would be the people of this country. We're there to check and balance them, except they've turned us against ourselves instead of the people keeping an eye on the government.

Vit wrote:

I've come to hate the party system as whole as it does nothing, but seperate the people causing Americans to bicker with each other and allow the government to get away with murder.(sometimes literally) We have a checks and balance system right? House of Reps, Congress, and the President. The check on those would be the people of this country. We're there to check and balance them, except they've turned us against ourselves instead of the people keeping an eye on the government.

I am with you on that, party system seems to do nothing but divide us these days. It would be so much better if we could just take people for who they are instead of what party they are affiliated with... would that really be a bad thing?

I'll also agree with you on no impartial radio, sites, etc, I try to read several sites on topics. The writers on Huff-post are pretty pro-obama, that's not hard to see.

THey aren't so much pro-Obama as they are liberal. I mean, that philosophy comes first, so whichever candidate is running who best fits that ideology, then that's who will be supported or favored.

In any event, it's always a good idea to get your info from as many sources as possible. If you soley rely on FOX News, then you're not doing a good enough job. Same goes for CNN or anything really. And, I actually like what CNN has been doing with their "Fact Checks" etc for the two candidates. It's a good way to see how both candidates stretch the truth, or in some cases, flat out lie.

If we had a system of proportional representation, such as Israel or Germany, we would probably see voter turnout increase because people would more options as far as candidates for high office/parliament go. When people feel they are more accurately represented, they tend to participate more. Or, you could have compulsory voting, as in Australia (which has 95% voter turnout). In any case, I have always wanted to see what it would be like to live/vote in a country with a set up like Italy or Germany or one of the other many countries who employ proportional representation. I, like many citizens, don't feel like either candidate truly falls in line, so I'm somewhat constrained and have to vote for the "best" match, which is by far Obama. I actually was pulling for Biden when he was still in the primaries, but after he dropped out, I went Obama all the way and I'm stoked Biden is his running mate.

Honestly though, Mike Gravel was always someone who actually spoke more in line with my views. Too bad he is old and irrelevant.

Dingy wrote:

THey aren't so much pro-Obama as they are liberal. I mean, that philosophy comes first, so whichever candidate is running who best fits that ideology, then that's who will be supported or favored.

Yea, that is pretty much what I meant by pro-Obama. I guess I am pretty liberal as well, so I generally like their writing. CNN's fact checks are informative, I also like their "panels", since they have someone from about every side they take comments from. Interesting to say the least.

I really thought it was hilarious that during the last debate, almost all "pundits" and viewers felt that Obama won the debate; that McCain just didn't come across well. Then, I flip over to Fox News and they had their "flash" poll of viewers. It was at like 81% of viewers feel McCain won. Interesting...

Dingy wrote:

I really thought it was hilarious that during the last debate, almost all "pundits" and viewers felt that Obama won the debate; that McCain just didn't come across well. Then, I flip over to Fox News and they had their "flash" poll of viewers. It was at like 81% of viewers feel McCain won. Interesting...

Faux news you say? Implausible! They are fair and balanced, they say it all the time.

Slayde wrote:

Faux news you say? Implausible! They are fair and balanced, they say it all the time.

I loled

Ravey wrote:

Slayde wrote:

Faux news you say? Implausible! They are fair and balanced, they say it all the time.

I loled

Me too! LOL.

Papogorpus wrote:

stuff

First off, I'm not conservative. Second, social welfare programs should not provide people an incentive to not work. Third, you fail to link how the reduction in handouts and taxes, or any other decisions, have had an effect on the economy. Fourth, making loaded statements without backing them up should get you called out and you still have not sufficiently backed up your statement that Bush started to ruin the economy in the first few months of his first term.

The reason Obama will be the next president. No one cares what he thinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU

Selfish wrote:

The reason Obama will be the next president. No one cares what he thinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU

You think this isn't countered by the fact that back-water ass hillbilly redneck hicks would never vote for a black man?

No, I think the video is hilarious and what is even more humorous is watching people come and defend him. The really funny thing is that he even caught people doing it with McCain as well. You will just have to find it. I am just picking on the population and how this shit is so fucked up its unreal.

Slayde wrote:

Dingy wrote:

I really thought it was hilarious that during the last debate, almost all "pundits" and viewers felt that Obama won the debate; that McCain just didn't come across well. Then, I flip over to Fox News and they had their "flash" poll of viewers. It was at like 81% of viewers feel McCain won. Interesting...

Faux news you say? Implausible! They are fair and balanced, they say it all the time.

Faux news and Clinton News Network

Both are completely biased towards their side, evident by what someone posted about 5 comments above me.(I cant scroll that high on responses on the reply window for some reason)

Quote :

You think this isn't countered by the fact that back-water ass hillbilly redneck hicks would never vote for a black man?

How would you feel if someone countered this by saying "All Obama has voting for him are baby killing, tax raising, anti-American communists!"? or "All the ghetto trash is voting for Obama?"

Doesn't really serve any good does it? Now, im not saying stating that black people are voting for Obama just because he is black is right, because it isn't, but it's accurate only in the fact that people who are uninformed(stupid voters as the one in that clip being polled) will vote for who they relate to the most. If you had an uninformed white voter, i'd be 9 out of 10 would vote for McCain because he is white. Not because they are racist or anti-black, but it's easier for them to relate to a white man with them being white themselves.

By saying white rednecks only vote for McCain because they don't like black people, you could flip that and say black people only vote for Obama because they're racist against whites. I feel neither statement is really true. Sure there will be exceptions, but if this is your excuse for why one candidate becomes pres in Nov over the other, you sir are the problem with our country.

The main problem i see with that clip about the Stern interviews is the fact that these people are uninformed. How can these people make one of the most important decisions in their life based on nothing? Or based on what they are fed from the media which we've already proven to be biased. That's a bigger issue than Obama is black, McCain is white. You have complete retards voting in people based on nothing, on BOTH sides.

Call me out if you want trakis, you're not getting a rise out of me. I stand behind everything I say, there is proof behind everything I say and if you want to accuse me of saying loaded statements without backing them up then you're just as naive as you imply that I am.

I am a true American, I believe what I say and believe others have a right to their opinions, but I'm not going to think anyone who's opinion differs from mine is correct. What can be more American than that. So I'm going to bring another American tradition to your table, disappointment. I am not going to fuel you're little fire anymore.

We say politics and religion can ruin parties, and this might just ruin our little party.

Though I did enjoy the food conversation (augh, i guess i really am a stereotypical American).

Vit wrote:

...is the fact that these people are uninformed.

I was just making an example, this is the true problem.

Uninformed or willfully ignorant, both aren't good.

I was talking to some friends at work and we came up with the idea to have a "Ignorance Test" at the top of the vote that would ask you a very general question about one of the candidates.

Like, "Is Obama a Muslim?"

or, "Has Senator McCain served in the US Senate?"

If someone has been marginally paying attention to the political situation in this country, they will know the answers to these questions, because (well the first one) has been beaten to death. If you answer wrong, your vote is thrown out because you are uninformed, ignorant, or a retard.

Slayde, that's amazing.

I'm glad I'm elitist. I think most people are retards.

Dingy wrote:

Slayde, that's amazing.

I'm glad I'm elitist. I think most people are retards.

WOOT! Academic elitism FTW!

Ravey wrote:

Dingy wrote:

Slayde, that's amazing.

I'm glad I'm elitist. I think most people are retards.

WOOT! Academic elitism FTW!

Yes, I paid all that god damn money for these degrees, you better believe I'm going to be an asshole about how much better I am than other

Papogorpus wrote:

Call me out if you want trakis, you're not getting a rise out of me. I stand behind everything I say, there is proof behind everything I say and if you want to accuse me of saying loaded statements without backing them up then you're just as naive as you imply that I am.

I am a true American, I believe what I say and believe others have a right to their opinions, but I'm not going to think anyone who's opinion differs from mine is correct. What can be more American than that. So I'm going to bring another American tradition to your table, disappointment. I am not going to fuel you're little fire anymore.

We say politics and religion can ruin parties, and this might just ruin our little party.

Though I did enjoy the food conversation (augh, i guess i really am a stereotypical American).

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you, I just want you to back up your statement, which you still haven't done. You can have an opinion all you want. If you want to say that you hate Bush and that he's the anti-Christ, I have no problem with that. If you want to say he started to ruin the economy in the first 8 months of his Presidency, you have to back that up. You're laying down an accusation without basis in fact. The only reason you're getting mad and having to proclaim that you are a "true American," is because you have nothing to back your statement up. I am not questioning your patriotism. I'm holding you accountable for a statement which you cannot back up, because not holding each other to certain standards results in a race to the bottom.